Byron: As a man I’ll try give my take on the present state-of-play as i see it:
Feminism cannot do anything to get men on board. That isn’t the direction the pendulum is swinging. Two generations of men who grew up vilified & demonized under feminism have communally come to realize they have been lied to & over the internet the news is spreading like wildfire. The men that used to count themselves as feminists (such as myself) have come to realize they were aiding & abetting a terribly destructive force. Men concerned about equality, fairness, & truth that would once have involved themselves with feminism are much more likely now to get involved with the men’s rights movement instead, which is at the present time still amazingly new, dynamic & open-ended. And its arguments actually make sense, too, which helps.
So no, there is nothing in feminism anymore for men, if indeed there ever was. Whatever good it actually may have done in the world (in the 1970?s?) is long past & it is only now a harmful presence wherever it appears. The last thing the human race needs is more feminism, in a new package. You can’t rebrand totalitarianism, nor should you want to.
Feminism is the wound, not the bandage. The present culture of misandry originates almost entirely with that single entity, which history will judge as a hate movement.
However, women who have previously identified as feminists can do the most amount of good right now by being prepared to leave old ideologies behind & looking to the future. They can try simply listening to the men around them without judgment, taking on board their concerns, &.seeing men’s needs as equal to their own. They can speak out on behalf of them to others. Men & boys are in far more need of attention, aid & compassion today than girls & women, as a rule – Men are 80 percent of the suicides, 85 percent of the homeless & 95 percent of all workplace deaths. Men die at greater rates than women from all the major diseases yet are given a comparatively tiny amount of the care & medical aid. I could go on but I feel like I’ve said this stuff too many times before. The information’s out there if you care enough to go look.
MuleChewingBriars: One of the other posters hit the nail on the head. We need to learn to celebrate women’s achievements as women’s achievements, not just when they are a man’s achievements achieved by someone in a skirt. A woman who nurtures a family is equally as valuable as a woman who runs a company as CEO (even more so, given the track records of some high profile female CEOs).
Men and women are different. They have different motivations and psychologies. Their brain morphologies are different. We need an ideology that is more accommodating to our biology, not one that will be one-size-fits-all. In attempting to make life more comfortable for the misfits and outliers, we have things practically unbearable for the mainstream. I think most men, without openly expressing it, want some form of a return to a kind of patriarchy-lite, where masculine accomplishments achieved in a manly way by men are celebrated. Patriarchy seems to have evolved in response to the problem of female hypergamy.
Monogamy is not always a logical outcome of patriarchy, but it does stabilize it by reducing the social static created by large numbers of unconnected men.
Zed: I doubt that too many men who retain any small amount of their mental health will sign on to help feminists achieve their goal of men’s demise.
According to Maria Shriver, the US is a woman’s nation now. What more could feminists need from us than for us to dig our own graves and save them the trouble of having to do it?
Dannyfrom504: This has gotten interesting. there’s nothing i could suggest to miss steinberg that others have said already. i don’t even engage a devout feminist anymore. even when you point out it’s unfairness and how truly it truly DOESN’T champion “gender equality”, they get flummoxed an start rambling stats. whatever.
And as one reader said. there’s no point trying to get men on board. now that the interwbez has the advent of the “manosphere” (a term i HATE btw), there are SCORES of men being told the truth about women and relationship. it’s always good when i get a new reader and their eyes open.
PasserBy: Next article idea – “From an African American point of view, what could the KKK do to get more blacks on board?” OK, just kidding … sort of.
MikeC: Feminism reminds me of the Vietnam War. There are no clearly, defined strategic objectives. There is no timeline. There is no clear criteria for “victory”. Just an everchanging enemy that must be fought. Patriarchy is communism. The movement has largely crossed the stage where there were noble objectives and is now into massacring of the innocents.
The problem is EVERYTHING has to start with a solid foundation. If you don’t have a solid foundation, everything crumbles from there. One of the foundations of feminism is the ideological nonsense that “gender is a social construct” instead of the reality of very real biological differences between the sexes (such as visual-spatial for men versus language for women)
Badger: I’ll be open in that I am not going to answer your question, because feminism had men on board and decided it’d be more fun to demonize them.
Feminism suffers from the same overreach that has marred latter-day racial activism – painting the status quo with way too broad a brush, and in the process asking for a de facto protected class status that belies its billing as an equality movement. I’ve never oppressed black people, and I’ve never oppressed women, but the activists keep saying I need to be controlled and suppressed because of some shit that went down decades before I was even born.
Many, many men have supported the movement because they thought it was the right thing to allow women to work and not marry if that was what they wanted. Not just guys who wanted to get laid from sexual liberation, but honest men who saw wrong and wanted it righted. Feminism of the past 20 years, with its resurgence of misandry in the service of supporting female narcissism (open sexuality for women while controlling that of men, frivolous divorce with crushing alimony and child support margins, glorifying abortion), has done nothing less than spit in their faces. All the while getting fully behind (and underneath) shameless rakes like Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy.
I wrote about this here, quoting Bettie Dodson in the section “V Day Guilt Complex”:
http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/valentines-day-follow-up/
“That night I wondered how men in the audience felt after being nailed as “the enemy.” It’s my bet that the men attending V-Day were all staunch supporters of equal rights for women. But here they were, faced with the same old male-bashing of the 60s and 70s.”
…Feminism’s job is done, the rest is just entitled shouting.
OfftheCuff: Neely: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_and_gender_feminism.
Feminism today, as espoused in culture, academia, and by feminist leaders is gender feminism, not equity. Feminism purports to be about equality but really is about superiority in practice.
Most men here believe in equity feminism, but not gender feminism. A few of the more strident types suggest rolling back the former but nobody takes them seriously.
Wayfinder: The problem with feminism in particular is that on a deeper level most of the men already agree that women should have equality of opportunity. Many men in those same time periods were denied opportunities, because of race, or class, or wealth, or culture. But as the waves progressed, feminists lost sight of the fact that with the men of their generation they were preaching to the choir, and used the lack of immediate hostility to get more hostile themselves.
This hostility is built up when the more militant radicals get airtime. All sex is rape. Men are as useless as a bicycle to a fish. These are the kinds of feminists who get quoted approvingly by Bolick in the Atlantic. Women hear these as messages of empowerment. They were fighting against being kept in a box. But at the same time, they are doing their best to keep the men in that box. Masculinity can only be approved if they like it politically. Femininity can never be approved, because that would be giving in to what the men want.
And so, we get a generation of young women who have been lead to believe that the only way to get a relationship with a guy is to act as much like a man as possible, get to sex quickly, and then he’ll be sure to like her. And then is hurt and confused when he treats her the exact same way he’d treat a guy.
And we have a generation of young men who believe that by never making the first move or intruding in her personal space he’s doing what she wants. And is bewildered when he gets beaten up for it.
William: Every group has sub groups of people who only believe in some of their core beliefs, Feminist are no different.
Sometimes you will see and hear feminist who want to improve woman’s lives while having no problem with throwing men under the bus.
We will never be equal, there will always be one group getting more than the other, the only thing we can do is make the gap smaller. While there are double standards that negatively affect woman, there are double standards that negatively affect men.
Dogsquat: What could feminists do?
They need to use tact.
When your goal is to influence a group of people or bring about societal change, “scoring points” is unimportant, and is often counter-productive.
The most visible/vocal feminists out there are drunk on rage and addicted to indignation. They seem to get off on dictating the language people use. It seems like Marcotte and her ilk would rather make a man feel stupid than explain a principle, or illuminate a viewpoint he might not have considered.
That’s a good way to make an enemy.
—
It would be dishonest not to acknowledge that feminism has helped men in important ways: It’s reduced the financial burden of men; it’s allowed men the option to be stay-at-home dads and thus nurture their relationships with their children; it’s allowed men to look at women as their equal partners. Many men rejoice in these gains, and they must not lose sight of them.
The current feminist movement must also not lose sight of the fact that its current trajectory is alienating men in droves. Women cannot become what they once fought so vociferously against. Women need to listen to the concerns of men; we need to respect their opinions; we need to look at the cold hard facts of what’s happening within the male demographic; we need to speak out more in defense of men and know that we won’t be shamed for doing so or presumed to be traitors who are against empowering women.
Women would do well to remind themselves of Walsh’s counsel: “A society in which males do not thrive cannot survive for long.”
A decent piece, except for this part:
This notion that the existence of the working women was a victory of feminism or a blow to evil patriarchy needs to die a quick death. The stay-at-home wife isn’t so much an invention of timeless male oppression as is was a holdover from the Victorian era when women were “kept” as a sign of status. The relic survived as industrial societies began concentrating production away from the home in factories, and men had to spend long hours away from their families, leaving the women to look over things. Before that the home was also the factory, and as such women were expected, and happily did, provide substantial economic value to their families. Or you can look at the Old Testament a read Solomon’s proverb about the “virtuous woman”. He talks endlessly about her labour and the considerable economic value she provides to her family…in a highly patriarchal society.
Let’s also go ahead and kill off this meme about how fathers didn’t nurture close relationships with their children until the feminists came along. Many patriarchal societies had presumed father custody upon divorce and men were intimately involved with their children lives, directing their educations and training as soon as they were able to walk.
I think part of the anger guys’ feel is because even non-feminists and well-meaning women have just bought so completely into the lies and caricaturing of patriarchal societies done by corrupt and dishonest feminists over the past 50 years. I don’t think we can truly move forward until these cranks and charlatans have been called out and debunked. And the first step is for people to get their facts straight.
Aside from this, it’s a decent piece—certainly a step in the right direction.
Agreed. That graph just reinforced the fact that many women who are supposedly friendly to the anti-misandry movement still don’t get it on a fundamental level.
“It’s reduced the financial burden of men”
Heh, that’s a rather interesting way of spinning the fact that feminism has stomped mens’ wages into the dirt. We’re working just as hard (when we can even find jobs, that is), but we’re no longer “burdened” with those heavy wallets!
The article is good but you need to know that many of the guys at Hookingupsmart are embittered Nice Guys ™ that believe that any women that disagree with them or reject them is a feminist . And here’s are the two dating gurus that they admire the most.
Heartiste/Roissy : http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/09/23/owning-a-dog-is-training-for-owning-a-woman/
RooshV : http://www.rooshv.com/how-to-know-if-a-girl-was-really-raped-or-not
Oh, hi Amanda
I’m a guy, I’m not a feminist, I don’t like Amanda Marcotte and I should have said “they believe that any MAN or woman that disagree with them is a feminist” 🙂
And about the article, I agree with that:
“It would be dishonest not to acknowledge that feminism has helped men in important ways: It’s reduced the financial burden of men; it’s allowed men the option to be stay-at-home dads and thus nurture their relationships with their children”
Before feminism, the only things that men were doing with their children was to punish them, scare them and tell them to join the army. Because women were allowed to work outside, men were effectively able to become stay-at-home dad and guys are far less macho than in the past.
And because of their economic freedom, women are no longer forced to marry to richest guy or the most powerful guy which give more opportunities to other guys.
It’s too bad that this poster didn’t take advantage of the opportunity afforded her (or him).
There are a bunch of intelligent (the other dudes, not me) men interested in these issues quoted here. We’re obviously going to read the comments, along with the regular readers. We are generally polite and interested in discourse. This is a neutral, if not friendly, place for someone who disagrees with anything we wrote.
Rather than engage, debate, learn, and perhaps change a mind or two – this poster chose to call me a name, lie about my preferences in blogs, and use a being verb right next to a contraction.
I’m a guy with a problem using commas and hyphens correctly – I admit that. I’m going to group therapy for it twice a week, and I just started taking 100 mg Dehifenol APA (Mucholistol Indasentenzase). My doctors and I are hopeful for the future. I don’t mind the name calling and insults so much, nor the blatant speculation about how I’ll treat a woman who disagrees with me. What cuts me like a Wüsthof Classic Filet knife is this sentence:
“And here’s are the two dating gurus that they admire the most.”
I am a weak and fragile man. I implore The Universe, The Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Great Magnet, Jesus, Buddha, Allah, and The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal to spare me from this torture. I simply cannot take another one.
Still never really read Roissy or Roosh, just the odd quote here & there. I certainly don’t ‘admire’ them. I do wish Amanda would just talk to me first before writing things like that.
You people are dumbasses if you think that no more mr. nice guy is Amanda Marcotte. He’s a French Canadian man who comments on social interactions and dating and the failures he sees in the PUA sphere from his own perspective and experiences in life in dealing with avoidant personality disorder. He’s incredibly insightful and astute and you all could gain a lot from reading his blog. It doesn’t just cover the PUA sphere but a lot of other topics, namely multiculturalism, where liberals fail, and other random topics (music, books, kittens).
And he speaks more than one language, in case you’re wondering why he might have an occasional grammatical error. How many languages do you speak? One? Figured.
Of course Marcotte would NEVER make comments where she has no censorship control and especially on a mainstream site like this one where she will absolutely be made to look like the fool she is. She is wise to avoid any forum where Susan Walsh can directly confront and mop the floor with her.
High there, Bright Stormy Day! Nice to “see” you.
I certainly don’t think the above poster is Ms. Marcotte.
I do okay in German, although I’m not fluent anymore. I use Spanish a lot in my day to day work as a street ‘medic, but I’ve never been formally taught and I doubt I could read/write any. I speak barely enough Arabic to (mostly) not get blown up – and that is fast leaving my mind. The only languages I can read and write are German (gradeschool level), English (passable), and Medicalese (BRBPR! It’s grrrrreat!).
I’m terrible at enough languages to have great respect for those who are good at several. That is not a skill that comes easily to me. I certainly hope it was obvious I was making a joke.
I shall not apologize for my comment – there was no personal attack, no name calling, and no aspersions cast upon anyone’s character. That is better treatment than I have received from you or “No More Mr. Nice Guys”.
I’m sorry you think I’m a dumbass. I liked you quite a bit when you posted on HUS. I hope your sense of humor is not gone permanently, and that you eventually recover from whatever made you so angry.
Have a good one, and I wish you health and happiness.
Yours in Having Awesome Steak au Poivre for Dinner and Why The Hell Am I Still Typing This When I Could Be Eating,
Dogsquat, Eater Of Steak (3rd Class)
Dogsquat I like you. A lot. I’m sorry I was mean to you. Let’s hold hands.
Also, I guess karma must exist because I had the same experience today. As in, I was you, and the other person was me. If that makes any sense. (Don’t make fun of me).
I think most of us are familiar with NMMNG. He’s a toadying little parrot for the sex pozzie feminists. He’s not Marcotte, but he might as well be (though she’s probably got more testosterone running through her veins than he does).
Guys, do you understand that you are incoherent ? On one hand you denounce men-hating feminists (and you will have no problem finding people that agree with you about that), and at the same time, you believe that anybody that disagree with you is also a feminist and an enemy. And if you read this place, you will find they are definitively on sex-positive side.
Dogsquat’s words (@ Oct. 22, 2011 at 1:47 am) in response to “No More” here’s are making me chuckle. In a more serious vein, the thoughts expressed here by masculinity-positive men have a great deal of substance. They suggest a way forward, while folks like Amanda Marcotte illuminate the reasons that the current state of affairs is often so unhappy. As a father with both a daughter and a son, I have to thank Marcotte and her sisterhood for their good work in opening my eyes. My kids especially are benefiting, as they approach the start of dating.
Readers who are intrigued by the ideas discussed in this article might find the views of a particularly articulate pro-feminine writer worth a quick look. “Bb” blogs pseudonymously at her site http://bbsezmore.wordpress.com/
Yes, wtf is this?
“It would be dishonest not to acknowledge that feminism has helped men in important ways: It’s reduced the financial burden of men; it’s allowed men the option to be stay-at-home dads and thus nurture their relationships with their children”
You should check his blog. We’ve talked about you and what a failure you are. As evidenced by how far your head is shoved up Susan Walsh’s ass.
Link?
Yohami, don’t waste your time. No More Mr. Nice Guy is a middle-aged antisocial dork who brags about how he can’t leave his house and talk to anyone without getting panic attacks. His “experience” with women and other people comes solely from posting on Internet forums. His arguments against the manosphere are full of logical fallacies and idiotic premises, and he and his fans spend all day gossiping about manosphere bloggers like women at a coffee klatch. In other words, he and his cohort are losers.
Then stop reading his blog.
I don’t. I’m just cautioning Yohami against wasting his time with a bunch of failures who have nothing better to do then spread rumors about people they don’t even know.
From what I’ve read, there wasn’t a lot of rumor spreading. Just postulations, generalizations (towards men in the mansphere, no one specific), and whatever was said about someone was backed up with link or a quote that they’ve stated before. I don’t see anyone posting real names, addresses, jobs, or making accusations that could harm a person’s reputation. They take what people say and put links to the original (if they’re speaking specifically).
It’s similar to what you just did. You took the information on nmmng’s blog, then used ad hominem. In fact, it’s not just similar, it’s the same. IIRC, you tried to pull the same shit with me at Aaron’s blog when I trashed some people in the manosphere. The difference is that I found what you wrote.
Im checking his blog. Smells like manboobz spirit.
“I don’t see anyone posting real names, addresses, jobs, or making accusations that could harm a person’s reputation. ”
This is true, that’s more like what happens on Ferdinand’s blog. Perhaps the editor and readers of this magazine should check it out.
And Ferdinand if No More Mr Nice Guy is middle aged, so is this dude Yohami. They are about the same age.
Drop the misandry, drop the extremists, drop the female pedestal, drop the irrational debaters, etc.
“That sentiment makes sense when you come across blogs like Eve’s Daughter, in which she dedicates an entire post to listing all the ways men are rape-supporters.”
That isn’t even her worst post. From http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2010/10/07/a-rant/
“Dear men:
Die.
No, seriously. This is a rant, and it’s about you, personally. You, personally, are a shit, because statistics indicate there is an almost 100% certainty that you have either committed a rape, or wanted to commit a rape, or knowingly assisted or defended someone who committed a rape, or mocked a woman who was raped. And no, I’m not dropping links to tell you what you should damn well already know.
Here is what you know: that you are a vile and depraved chunk of flesh that doesn’t matter to the world. You exist in a reality you perpetuate in which value is all relative, in which everything is placed into a hierarchy, which in the end means that nothing has inherent value. You are literally worthless.
And you are willing to do it so long as someone is worth less. So part of the way you deal with that is to try to make women worth less. You whine and whinge and cry about the Big Brother Corporations or Big Brother Government or Big Brother China-taking-all-our-jobs or Big Brother asshole-who-beat-you-up-in-seventh-grade or Big Brother who-raped-you, but in the end you lap it up and pass the buck so that you can have someone underneath your own thumb. You only care about your rank in the pecking order, so spare me the crocodile tears.
[…]
If the world was the tiniest bit just, or fair, or merciful, or righteous, I would be out there with a knife or a gun hunting you down. I would offer you blowjobs for forty dollars behind the building and then dispatch you quickly in quiet solitude. I would be kinder than you, because I would only go after adults. I would be kinder than you, because I would do it quickly and not torture you first. I would be kinder than you, because I wouldn’t call you names or demean you or psychologically terrorize you while I was doing it. You would be released from the psychotic prison of your mind, and there would be one less man out there threatening my mother, my sisters, my daughters, and my self.
You wouldn’t know who I was. I smile at you in that elevator. I dress inconspicuously. I call you “sir” if you’re older. I’m the one who serves you coffee at the drive-thru window, and you crack jokes to try to get me to smile. I’m the one who cleans your office, who you greet by first name and a smile with that little half-wave. I’m the one who tells you to turn your head to the side and cough. I could poison you, I could go through your desk drawer and destroy your finances, I could kill you on the operating table. I could do things to you. You don’t know. I’m your next door neighbor, your secretary, your sister, your wife. I’m the “loud” “fat” woman in your office you dismiss out of hand. I’m the young Asian girl from downstairs you eroticize because of my presumed submissiveness.
It’s ironic, really – you try to subvert, and corrupt, and infect, and distort, and mangle, and destroy our lives because you aren’t even sure you have one. It’s obvious that you don’t deserve one.
You aren’t scared of me, but maybe you should be. Because I know what you are. And I know how this will end.
You think this sounds violent? Don’t even start; I know what you look at when you masturbate.”
Has any of the “extremists” in the manosphere said something this inflammatory?
You forget Arpagus, who says men should balance the score by violently raping and killing women.
You forgot the link : http://eivindberge.blogspot.com/2009/05/rape-is-equality.html
Fuck her. What a piece of shit.
Having been actively “male” for 60 years, I find the strong blaming by many Men of:
“Feminism” or “Women” rather common and unfortunate. I can accept fully men who were abused as boys by their mothers having major anger towards their mothers. I can understand some of the resentment young men may have when they may be repeatedly rebuffed in their efforts with young women.
At the same time I see relatively few men talking of how “masculinity” as we’ve been taught it and pressured towards most commonly by other men is dangerous to our survival in various ways. I’ve seen only limited efforts amongst fellow men to build real serious support – and even caring from our peers – our buddies – other men. It seems that homophobia – triumphs far too often as well as our being stuck in worlds such as sports and video games – which tend towards superficiality.
Yes, we men are hurting – that’s very, very true! Sadly, we tend towards lashing out – and not looking realistically at how we need to struggle together and work at building – something (positive) for ourselves. Feminism – didn’t magically help women with their issues with the first books of the 1960’s – at a distance.
Perhaps – rape, domestic violence and stalking (of women) – aren’t “our issues” today. Then – perhaps we might consider bullying – as a first step – as a “men’s issue”. I’ve collected lots of – URL’s – leading to many resources on many issues at: A Men’s Project: http://www.AMensProject.com – not – for-profit or exploitation or similar – but honestly to try to help. Thanks!
Ladies-
You have already achieved “peak participation” from men. From this point forward, you will slowly lose more men than you will gain as allies.
This will undoubtedly make many of you enraged. Your first reaction will be to resort to the typical scolding and shaming language to try and compel men to dance to your tune.
We are not falling for that anymore.
If you go on a rage-filled rampage, you lose male participation. If you do not go on a rant, you lose male participation. Either way, men have figured out that feminism, as currently practiced, is about putting burdens and obligations on men, and pre-accusing them of wrongs.
We are suppose to assist you in this?
You NEED MEN to cooperate in order to achieve the goals of feminism. Despite all the grrrl-power talk, women cannot run a society on their own, and cannot enforce feminist dictates without the assistance and cooperation of men.
YOU ARE LOSING THAT COOPERATION, and the effect is permanent.
You ladies, with your brilliant cunning, have succeeded in making more misogynists than there ever where before.
And, you should see the effect that my defiance of the female attitude has on other men. It is so much easier for me to get them off the plantation than it ever was for you to get the men on it in the first place.
Feminism is dying, and there is NOTHING any of you can do about it.
🙂
“It’s reduced the financial burden of men; it’s allowed men the option to be stay-at-home dads and thus nurture their relationships with their children; it’s allowed men to look at women as their equal partners.”
Except, of course, for how it hasn’t. Actual, material, technological improvement has done the first and allowed the second, and the third is a grotesquely bigoted insult based on feminist lies.
Look at how many responses are calling you out for that bit of bigoted, femelitist, male-bashing crap. Look at the PERCENTAGE of responses. We’re certainly noticing that math, and we now know from many, many years of experience that If you refuse to seriously address the criticisms of this, it’s more than enough evidence to conclude that you’re just yet another user bigot trying to exploit us.
I do actually have a simple catchphrase that answers your question. There actually is something you can do to get men on board., But you don’t deserve to have it posted on your blog yet, just like Susan over at HUS doesn’t either. You haven’t yet earned the benefits of my years of effort and training.
You need to step up a lot harder and farther now, because any “credit” you think you’ve earned through this post has been lost in a sea of red debits from that one single quote above. That’s how it works now. That’s how much crap like that costs you, these days.
And the longer you let it go unaddressed, the bigger, deeper, and colder that sea of red debits against you becomes.
Thanks for quoting me. That was a very provocative question and obviously got the more articulate members of the HUS community really churning.
The tide of success and opportunity is going to take place at the individual level. “Getting men on board with feminism” is not going to happen in any collective sense – that bubble has peaked already. What an individual woman can do to get a man on board with supporting her through her life (emotionally and spiritually, in a relationship kind of way) is to support him in his life. That means developing empathy for men and for the modern male condition, being serious about addressing his emotional needs the same way you expect him to address yours without shaming him as “needy” or “a little boy,” and taking the marital “commitment” seriously, i.e. no bailing because you feel “trapped” when everything isn’t perfect. Other steps include financial discipline, some well-placed modesty and humility and excising your life of “friends” who are toxic to your relationship (i.e. distance yourself from that chronically single and unhappy sidekick. I’m looking at you, DateMeDC.)
I am a man who is a strong supporter of civil liberties, individual rights, and equal opportunity. As such, I am vehemently opposed to modern feminism, which has become a supremacist movement.
I applaud your bravery and balanced perspective for posting this piece. Seriously, I was in a bad mood today but now I feel great after reading this. Thanks for keeping an open mind.
Feminists are responsible for many “mens rights issues” today. VAWA, Title IX quotas (which the National Womens Law Center is trying to expand to high school sports, which will lead to boys teams being cut simply because too many boys and too few girls want to play sports).
BUT the most disgusting and obvious form of misandry, hatred and rape paranoia from feminists is their constant push to expand rape laws.
Read this and be sure to thank feminist lobbying for it.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516232905230642.html
Well, we’re finally starting to get through that thick wall of ‘It’s all about me’ most women have at last!
Too bad it’s probably far too late to salvage much goodwill from men in the near future….
You ladies really, REALLY blew it.
And once they realize how badly they blew it, they will blame men for letting it happen.
First I will address your predisposition that men need or should be getting on board with feminism. That right there is your first strike. Feminism is female centric, it always has been, it’s even in the name. For this reason, men can never be equals in a feminist sphere.
Stop dominating the conversation:
Thank you for asking for asking for Men’s perspective; It is quite rare for feminists to even ask so I truly do want to thank you for asking and doing so in a respectful way. Because of the dyadic nature of gender, any time there is a female perspective there will be a male perspective on that same issue. If we believe that Men and Women are of equal value than we need to also equally value the unique perspectives of each.
Stop with the lies:
You know the ones I am talking about. 1 in 4 women raped, 90ish% of violence, abuse and rape caused by men with women being 90ish% of the victims. Think about this seriously for a moment. Do you really expect men to get on board with organizations that are being so blatantly intellectually dishonest? Especially when facts are fudged in such a way to make Men the bad guy, which leads us to.
Quit making Men the Bad guy:
By making men your enemy you exclude us from being your ally. Why would a man want to come on board with an ideology that has declared war on him?
Yeah, all those poor men are getting their feelings hurt. Women just get hurt.
Hey Fish
You put up the wrong link, silly you. This one is the main thrust of your “fact$ and $tat$” ridden site:
http://www.dvrc-or.org/domestic/violence/resources/C22/
Men don’t oppose feminism as much as they oppose the many seemingly antimale feminist leaders who influence women and the media.
To see what I mean, read “Feminist Writers: Distinguish Between Feminism and Feminist Leaders!” http://battlinbog.blog-city.com/feminist_writers_confuse_feminism_and_feminist_leaders_at_m.htm
This needs to be said loud & clear. I’m not at all offended by generic feminism/equality language. The problem is that this is rarely how it manifests in reality. The reality is that feminists who wield institutional power use the rhetoric of equality to enact decidely misandric policies that men & boys generally (and, in the long run, damages women as well). This is what needs to end—not the push for equality.
There is nothing anyone can do to get me to support feminism. It is an old, rotten thing.
I was a little boy in the early nineties and was told that women were equal to men and that sexism was wrong. I believed this. But then I grew up seeing how sexism against men is ignored or accepted. I saw how a father isn’t a real member of a family, but superfluous and disposable. I saw and felt how violence against females is abhorred while violence against men is business as usual. I was acutely aware of the gynocentricity of the education system as I went through it. Saw the man bashing on television and the suspicion in people when a man was around children. I remember being told never to ask a male stranger for help if I was alone. And then there’s expectations of chivalry. I knew from the age of 5 that I could some day be forced to fight as a soldier while my so called equals would be spared that. And if any man complains about it he is ridiculed.
I’ve been sold a lie, grew up looking it in the face and now I’m very, very pissed off. Not going to keep quiet about it for much longer.
Feminism isn’t going to do any good from here on. It’s fundementally female-centric to it’s core. Being feminist isn’t being progressive or radical. Feminist narratives are mainstream. It’s time for men to stand up as individuals and define themselves. Traditional and feminist values are both aim to make men into utilities for women. Traditional and feminist values aren’t about what’s good for men.
It’s time for a new equality movement because feminism is female-centric and will never create real equality. Only equality that benefits women. Men need to reject the family, reject sacrifice for their country, reject providing for or protecting women.
Quite a fine article in the listening to men.
However, the final femalist paragraph of this article makes no sense –
“It would be dishonest not to acknowledge that feminism has helped men in important ways: It’s reduced the financial burden of men; it’s allowed men the option to be stay-at-home dads and thus nurture their relationships with their children; it’s allowed men to look at women as their equal partners. Many men rejoice in these gains, and they must not lose sight of them”
Sadly to me that seems like a misguided, rationalizing and somewhat gloating entitled set of attitudes.
Contrary to those attitudes I think it’s important to accept certain facts –
* It was male invented technologies rather than feminism that freed women – domestic appliances, the birth control pill and democratic politics. Only after these inventions could feminism even exist.
Prior to that women, like men were too busy to reflect upon their sex roles.
* Men still pay the majority of income tax, yet receive only a small fraction of state support programs women receive. As this changes due to men being left behind economically there are no feminist drives to assist men in any manner at all financially or otherwise. On the contrary feminists only push relentlessly for further gains for women willfully ignorant of men’s issues.
* Feminism did not free men up to become stay at home dads. As I mentioned earlier because men invented the technologies to free women up to leave the home and enter paid employment men could then become stay at home dads. Some have done so despite DECADES of feminists maliciously poisoning the social environment with misandric hysteria branded all men as potentially a sexual risk to children. Therefore I believe the reality is men have bravely become stay at home dads DESPITE feminism.
* Women have MASSIVE protection in the form of taxpayer funded supports enshrined in law and social customs which males don’t so it’s a cruel fallacy to say feminism has created equality – totally the opposite in fact!
The reality is feminists have created sexual apartheid!
I think the author should read – http://www.angryharry.com/notefeminismforstudents.htm
I’m curious as to why you wouldn’t want to align yourself with modern feminists? What do feminists fight for that you find so disagreeable?
Why can’t people see that feminism is good for men too? Doesn’t it restrict men less to traditional male identities?
I firmly hold the belief that feminism is just an outdated term for philanthropy.
Here’s an example of your “feminism is just an outdated term for philanthropy”:
Check out the generosity of this feminist writer.
http://gos.sbc.edu/s/solanas.html
“I am curious to know: From a male POV, what could the feminist movement do to bring men on board?”
That’s like saying: “From a Black perspective, what could the KKK do to bring more minorities on board?”
The fembots cannot, do not and will not give a rat’s @$$ about the other half of the population (aka males).
More and more men are waking up to this fact every day, and we are not happy about it.
“If the pendulum of gender equality once swung all the way to one side it’s now perhaps well on its way to the other.”
People who say that feminism is causing wide-spread oppression of men remind me of the people who believe there’s an actual “War on Christmas.” It’s like a spoiled child who’s been indulged their whole life finally being told “No.” They stomp their feet and throw a temper tantrum and complain that they’re being mistreated.
Courtesy of Google Translate’s new “Feminist->English”:
> Jess d’Arbonne says:
> December 9, 2011 at 6:12 pm
>
> Man up, shut up, and do as we say. And I want $200 to do my hair.
People who say that women are more oppressed than men remind me of the people who believe there’s an actual “War on Christmas.” It’s like a spoiled child who’s been indulged their whole life finally being told “No.” They stomp their feet and throw a temper tantrum and complain that they’re being mistreated.
Quite correct, sir.Sex discrimination against women is a complete lie and has been from day one. Let me prove it.
In 1950’s America women work to support men who stay home and raise the children. Women give away the house, the furniture, the car and all their money in men take all divorce court. Women pay massive child support and alimony to automatic custody fathers. Women die by the hunfreds of thousands on the battlefield while “Jimmy the Riveter” makes high wages in the factories back home. Women go down with the Titanic so that men and children can climb on the lifeboats first. Women work hemselves into heart attacks so that men can outlive women by seven years on average and inherit 80% of all the personal wealth in the country. Men have it made.
In 1963 Betty Friedan publishes her runaway bestseller, “The Male Mystique”. Betty claims to be a househusband but is really a life long Communist and devotee of Joseph Stalin, who glorified Soviet female labor in the factories and gave female comrades “scientific socialist” maternity leave to make babies on the factory’s time. Betty claims that the average male suburban house husband is living in a glorified Auschwitz concentration camp. Men should pursue careers and high paying jobs in addition to men and children first. Women tell men to shove it. With all this discrimination in favor of men women are not about to give men al the jobs too. Men scream thatthey want “equal pay for equal work”. Womenn say that since men do not have to support the opposite sex like women do, give away everything they own in men take all divorce court or pay child support or alimony to automatic custody fathers, like women do. Therefore, women deserve greater pay than men.
And that is the complete refutation of the nonsense calle “male feminism”.
To “bridge the gap”, I suggest these things:
1) Women who file for divorce without PROVING in court (to pre-1960 standards) pre-1960 grounds for divorce, leave the children and all marital assets behind, and get NO alimony.
2) Eliminate all affirmative action for women, whether in schools, work, and the justice system.
3) Get rid of women having the vote.
4) End welfare for women.
That would work.